Doocey and Kramer on the Lords’ ‘Media: News Corporation — Motion to Take Note’

• [Jul 15] Moved By Lord Fowler: THAT this House takes note of recent allegations about the conduct of the news media and police; and the position of News Corporation within United Kingdom media provision.

• Baroness Doocey (Liberal Democrat): My Lords, the issue of phone hacking at News International has evolved into a major scandal with implications not just for the media, but also for the Metropolitan Police. I would like to focus my comments on the implications for the Metropolitan Police since the Met's conduct has, with some justification, I think, come in for quite a lot of criticism. There is an urgent need for reform. I shall preface my remarks by saying that in the seven years that I have been a member of the Metropolitan Police Authority, I have met some absolutely outstanding police officers who are hard-working, dedicated, efficient and effective. But I have no doubt that the last two investigations conducted by the Met into phone hacking at the News of the World were limited in scope, not given sufficient priority, and just not thorough enough.

I believe that one of the reasons for this-it is certainly a contributory factor-is the cosy relationship that was allowed to build up between senior officers of the Metropolitan Police and senior executives of the News of the World and News International. This has bothered me for a long time. I raised it with the Acting Commissioner at the beginning of this year in public at the Metropolitan Police Authority. I was concerned that on no fewer than 36 separate occasions between November 2005 and November 2010, senior police officers met with senior executives of News Corporation and News of the World. They did not just have meetings; they also had lunches and dinners. What I found most extraordinary was that the two officers who led both of the investigations were involved in some of these lunches and dinners. I believe that that could be open to misinterpretation.

I have no doubt that there is nothing wrong in principle with police officers meeting with the press. Indeed, I fully accept that they need to do so in order to do their job. But it must be said that the Metropolitan Police already employs 69 people in its press office, which is quite a lot. Equally, there is no doubt that if senior officers are going to have meetings, it is absolutely essential that a transparent system is set up to record such meetings, lunches and dinners. I have written to the commissioner asking that he set up such a transparent system and I have suggested that all officers of ACPO rank and above should record all meetings and all hospitality, including receptions, lunches and dinners-by that I also mean private dinners-with journalists and media executives. I believe that there should be a system whereby all hospitality by senior officers of a value of £25 or more should be recorded and that such information should be on record in a register that is updated every month and made freely available to anyone who wishes to examine it via the internet. Such a system would involve no greater effort or disclosure than that which the Met has already been obliged to make in response to Metropolitan Police Authority questions and freedom of information requests. The difference would be greater efficiency, transparency and promptness.

Never again should we have a system where meetings, entertainment, lunches and dinners are open to misinterpretation. The time is long overdue for a transparent system that is open for everyone to examine, and I strongly urge that this is set up without any further delay.

• . . Baroness Kramer (Liberal Democrat): My Lords, I hesitate to rise in these circumstances. I wanted to speak today not because I have any special or exceptional knowledge of the media industry but because it is incredibly important that we have as many speakers from all parts of this House on this Friday afternoon, which is probably not convenient for anybody who is here, to make it clear both how significant we regard these issues and that we will not allow the matter to slide away. With the extremely welcome appointment of the inquiry under Judge Leveson, the closure of the News of the World, the resignation-as we now know-of Rebekah Brooks, and the agreement of the Murdochs, father and son, to appear before the Select Committee next week, it would be very easy to become complacent and assume that this matter will now work its way out through the system.

I believe we have a unique opportunity now to try and contribute to finding the right footing on which to put the regulation of the media in this country so that we both protect the absolutely critical and crucial freedoms of the press-as the noble Lord who believes that his words will have been struck said-and protect the public from abuse. It will be clear to anyone who has listened to the Murdoch family that they expect this issue to go away, while Mr al-Waleed and other investors in News Corp see that there will be an opportunity to come back and bid for the rest of BSkyB once the dust has settled. I recommend to anybody today's copy of the Wall Street Journal, which is sitting in the Library, for the interview there with Rupert Murdoch. Others have quoted in detail from it but, frankly, you could use the words, "Butter wouldn't melt". There seems to be no real recognition, certainly from the Murdoch empire, that the matter has changed, even though that has to be absolutely clear to the rest of us.

In terms of reform, if the mechanism is to be the Leveson inquiry, it is going to be important that this House contributes to looking again at the appropriate structure for the Press Complaints Commission. I have to say to the noble Lord, Lord Grade, that I do not think that the public have the kind of confidence in that body that he may have suggested. At the very least, it looks utterly impotent. I believe that to most of the public it looks as though it gives the interests of the media much more significance and weight than the interests of the individual. It would seem that fundamental reforms are needed, such as making sure that the commission at least has a majority of lay people on it-somewhat closer to two-thirds-having a tightening-up and, perhaps, the actual implementation of the code of conduct and having proper penalties, which have not existed in the past, including potential imprisonment for the obtaining of personal information. It seems to me that there have to be real teeth to any commission but that has not been its past character.

We have sat around with the phone-hacking scandal on our hands for several years, in which the evidence has either been in the public arena or, certainly, before a very wide range of people and the Press Complaints Commission has been able to act in only the most limited way to deal with that crisis. Frankly, if we had not had the appalling revelation of what happened to the Dowler family, we would still be in that same situation. We cannot continue with a regulatory structure which allows that to happen.

I thought it might be quite interesting, since the issue of plurality has come up, to take a look at the stable-mates of the News of the World and see how they had been covering the phone-hacking story, especially since all of them regard themselves as aggressive, investigative media outlets which look without fear and favour. It has to be said of the Times, the Sunday Times and BSkyB that they were, essentially, very late in coming to the table and recognising the issue. When they finally did, there were quality stories but it cannot be said that it was the best day for outlets that call themselves investigative freedom fighters on behalf of the public.

Looking at the Sun, it struck me as absolutely appalling that there was almost no coverage. When it finally came, if you were reading the Sun you would have assumed that Rupert Murdoch had uncovered the phone-hacking scandal and was leading the investigation and looking for the remedies. I found it most chilling of all-this may go back to my first point-that the editorial on 11 July by Trevor Kavanagh, which was essentially regretting the death of the News of the World, was a diatribe against the BBC. It ended with a scarcely veiled threat that basically said,

"But we should examine closely the motives of those who brought it"- the News of the World- "to its knees".

The notion that the empire has accepted the verdict of the public and recognised the full extent of these issues is very far from the reality. We cannot allow that creeping dominance of the political voice, by either the Murdoch empire or any other empire, to happen again.

I raise again the issue of ownership, which others have mentioned. It struck me that we might have been in an extraordinary situation in the next few days, in which Murdoch father and son could have been called before the Senate in the United States but we might have found ourselves impotent to call them before a committee of this House. It is still unclear to me what the legal position of this House is in relation to owners of newspapers who are not citizens of this country. That whole issue has to be part of the examination. As someone else pointed out, it might be interesting to raise the issue of tax residency when we are having that kind of conversation. We cannot face that kind of humiliation again.

I come from a party that obviously has not had close relationships with the Murdoch empire. One can say that it has either ignored us or, from time to time, viciously attacked us-it did so in a very personal way to Nick Clegg at the most recent election. I am convinced, though, that we have to hold together and be above party in the way that we deal with these issues. I went to hear part of the debate in the other place, and I have to say that it began to break into a partisan debate across the Floor. That did nothing to assist us in the primary purpose that we must have, which is to use this opportunity to ensure that our press regulation is put on an utterly proper footing that we would all agree on.

I looked at a speech that James Murdoch made in 2009, where he said that the independence of the press could be protected only by profit as the primary driver. I think we would agree that the independence of the press is assured not by profit but by recognising the values of our society, the rights of the individual and putting the freedom of the press alongside that. Let us take this opportunity to ensure that we achieve the greater good, the silver lining, out of what has been a terrible cloud.

• Full Debate in Parliament