Heath on the Report from the House of Commons Reform Committee on Rebuilding the House

• [Feb 22] David Heath (Somerton & Frome, Liberal Democrat): ' . . IF we want an illustration of what is wrong with Parliament, it is the fact that only one Member of Parliament is in the position to table a motion for reform of the procedures of the House. If she chooses not to table a motion . . there is . . nothing that any other Member . . can do about it. . . '

May I say what a pleasure it is to follow Dr. Wright. I thank him for the work that he did in chairing his Committee and I thank the other members of the Committee.

When the hon. Gentleman started his comments, I rather thought that he wanted to give the impression that the history of his Committee until this point was not an example of exactly the ills that he described, but he proceeded to give us myriad examples of precisely why Executive control over the procedure of the House holds up the proper scrutiny and proper initiation of business.

If we wanted a more up-to-date example, however, we had only to listen to the comments of the Leader of the House. I do not think that it was deliberate provocation, but she boasted that only the Government had tabled the motions to allow the debate to happen, apparently oblivious of the fact that only the Government can table them, because that is what Standing Orders say. If we want an illustration of what is wrong with Parliament, it is the fact that only one Member of Parliament is in the position to table a motion for reform of the procedures of the House. If she chooses not to table a motion, as she did for a while, there is absolutely nothing that any other Member of the House can do about it.

The Leader of the House went on to say that this is an historic day. I suppose that it is historic in that we have a new carpet in the Chamber, which I admire, but I am less convinced that it is historic in terms of the reforms before us. I see these reforms as necessary, but as a very small step in the right direction. Reform ought to be a tide coming in. At this point, we have perhaps reached high water in terms of Executive power, but it will be high water only if Members of the House are prepared to accept their responsibilities and actually do something in the Lobby over the next week or so.

Reform of the House is necessary and urgent, but the Government's view is that that urgency has yet to be demonstrated. The hon. Member for Cannock Chase was very polite about the numerous procedural barriers that appear to have been put in the way. Let us remember that the Prime Minister himself initiated this process. Soon after he became Prime Minister, he said that wanted reform of the House. What happened? Nothing. Eventually, we had the proposal to set up the Wright Committee. What happened? Nothing. Eventually, at the last possible moment before the summer recess, the Committee was set up and it did wonderfully expeditious work in bringing forward its proposals and reporting to the House. What happened? Nothing.

After we had asked week after week when we would have the opportunity to debate the matter, we eventually got the extraordinary procedure before us. In another illustration of what is wrong with this process, we are not allowed to debate the Committee's recommendations in their totality; we are allowed to debate only what are described by the Leader of the House as big tickets. Issues with small tickets are apparently destined to oblivion; those with big tickets, as defined by the Leader of the House, can be debated.

When I questioned the Prime Minister on the subject a few weeks ago, I suggested that the Government's sense of urgency was such that they exhibited all the dispatch of a particularly arthritic slug on the way to its own funeral. I might have added, "In a snowstorm." A number of pedants came up to me afterwards and said, "You can't have an arthritic slug, because a slug is an invertebrate," but I have to say that, given the progress of these proposals, the metaphor is all the more accurate.

As has already been said, this issue ought not to be determined by those on the Front Benches. It should not be for the Leader of the House-or the shadow Leader of the House, or me-to determine what will happen. It should not be for anyone to dictate to the House how we are to conduct our business. It should be for each and every Member of the House to take a view as to whether they believe that we conduct our business in an acceptable way-whether they believe that we fulfil the expectations of those who send us here to scrutinise legislation and to hold the Government to account. If Members think that they do fulfil those expectations, they will vote for the status quo. I have to say that I believe that the vast majority of people outside this House think that at present we do our job extraordinarily badly. Part of the reason for the opprobrium that has been heaped upon the House in recent weeks is that people do not understand why we allow this situation to continue, and why we allow this House to be so ineffective in doing its work.

It has been suggested by some that the proposals constitute an argument in favour of the separation of powers, but in fact we currently have a separation of powers: we have a separation between this weak, ineffective, useless House and the House at the other end of the corridor, which is unelected and has no mandate, but which has the time to scrutinise our legislation properly and to amend it and make appropriate suggestions. What sort of political arrangement is it that allows this House no power while allowing an unelected and unaccountable House all the power in the world to hold the Government to account? That cannot be right.

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Hilary Armstrong (North West Durham, Labour): I really am a bit surprised by what the hon. Gentleman is saying. I want there to be effective scrutiny, but he should include Committee sittings in this House in his calculation of the amount of time spent on scrutinising Bills here. I used to look at this matter regularly-although I have not done so in the past couple of years-and I know that people often include the time on the Floor in the other place and the time on the Floor of this House, but the other place does not look at Bills in Committee. If the hon. Gentleman were to add that time into his calculations, he would find that frequently the other place spends less time on Bills than this House.

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David Heath: That completely ignores a couple of facts. One fact is that Report stage provides the opportunity for every Member of this House to represent the views of their constituents on a matter, and to bring forward proposals for debate. Fact No. 2 is that the Government-in their wisdom-often introduce large chunks of Bills that are never seen by the Committee, as they appear only on Report, and often in a very unfinished state at that.

We fail to do our job, therefore, and I defy anyone to accept the current position, under which, for instance, large parts of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Bill were not debated in this Chamber. Despite extra time being given, large parts of a constitutional Bill were not debated on the Floor of the House. An education Bill will come before this House tomorrow. In Committee, only about 15 clauses of that 50-clause Bill were considered. Nevertheless, that Bill's remaining stages will be put before us in a single day, and it will then be dispatched to the other place, which will be expected to do the job that we are elected to do. It is indefensible that we conduct our business in that way.

To those who argue that we must allow the House as a whole, rather than the Executive, to determine how we conduct our business, and that all Members of the governing party must have loyalty to the Government whom they support, I say that of course I expect loyalty to the Government from Government Back Benchers. Of course I expect them to support legislation that is in their party's manifesto, and the Government to have the time to introduce their legislation and to ensure that it makes progress. That is not in question. However, I find very difficult the logical somersaults required to support positions that change diametrically, through 180°, from one year to the next, whereby one Bill repeals the work of another that was put before us the previous year, as I am sure do many Government Back Benchers. We owe loyalty to our constituents, as well as to our parties, in considering Bills and deciding what position to take on them, and it is difficult to fulfil that within that constraints of the arrangements as they are.

My prime contention is that this House must have the time to scrutinise legislation and to hold the Government to account in an appropriate way, and that is not allowed for in the current arrangements. The reform of the Report stage is key to securing that and we will obtain it only if this House is prepared to adopt a position other than supine acquiescence in whatever the Government of the day want and to say, "We will do our job as Members of Parliament and we insist that we have the time necessary to do it properly."

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Hugh Bayley (York, City of, Labour): I am a passionate reformer. It seems to me that the hon. Gentleman is posing the argument as if put-upon Back Benchers are unable in any way to make a difference to Government policy and a wicked Government-whichever party is in power-prevent scrutiny from taking place. Like me, he has served on Public Bill Committees where hours of debate have been used by Opposition Members in a way that did not focus on key issues and it has almost appeared-I have seen this when I have been an Opposition Member serving on such a Committee-as if the Opposition wanted to run out of time so that they had something to complain about. Does he agree that it is important for all Members on both sides of the House to use the time we have to maximum effect, rather than just to blame the Government for providing a lack of time for scrutiny?

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John Bercow (Speaker)

Order. May I gently say to the House that I understand its enthusiasm for these issues, but some of the interventions are becoming mini-speeches? I am sure that the House will take note of that.

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David Heath: Thank you, Mr. Speaker.

I want a rational use of our time; I do not want to misuse or abuse it. I want the House to have enough time to ensure that on important issues everybody's voice can be heard-that is not the case at the moment. I want us not to spend all day and all night discussing Bills on which there is a consensus and have people drafted in by the Whips to fill time uselessly, while other Bills on which there are key issues of contention that matter to Back Benchers and Front Benchers go undebated. A House business committee would use time rationally-at least I hope it would. There is certainly a greater chance of its doing so than the current arrangements. I support all the recommendations of the Wright Committee-I have no power to induce other Members to support them-in so far as they go. I acknowledge the limits of the remit and I have some doubts about the way in which they have been translated into motions before the House this evening, but I support the proposals. There is one exception, but I shall come to that in a moment.

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Evan Harris (Oxford West & Abingdon, Liberal Democrat): Hugh Bayley made a very important point: even if we have enough time for scrutiny on Report, we cannot have it monopolised in way that is not efficient, whereby speeches fill the amount of time available. The Wright Committee was clear on that. Recommendation 33 proposes as a quid pro quo that time limits on speeches and interventions could apply on Report.

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David Heath: You might need to consider a time limit on interventions in this debate, Mr. Speaker. However, of course my hon. Friend is right; that point is key.

I shall support what the Wright Committee has said when it comes to the two-tier arrangement of a Back-Bench business Committee and a House business Committee, although I would prefer one Committee. I do not see the logic of having two other than as an inducement to others to support the idea. However, if that is the case and if a gradualist approach is necessary in order to avoid startling the horses, then so be it. The logic that most sensible parliamentary democracies adopt of having a single committee on the business of the House is something that we should consider.

Let me draw my comments to a close. We have these proposals before us this evening. It is open to a single Member to shout "Object" and the motions will then be debated at a future time. If there is no objection, they will go through. That prompts the question of what will happen to the other recommendations that are not before us, which have been arbitrarily removed from consideration on the basis that they are not big tickets. I do not know the answer to that-the Leader of the House might illuminate the House on that issue at a later stage.

Another question is how we can engineer the vote that many of us want on the amendment on the House business committee in the name of Dr. Wright, which is signed by many other colleagues, including myself. Of course, it would not come into play if the motion on the Back-Bench committee were agreed to tonight, unless the Leader of the House is prepared to table it as a new and separate motion. I understand that she has said that she will do that, which is great. If the Leader of the House supports that proposal-although the rest of the Government do not appear to do so-that is good news and I welcome it. We have been told that there are four big tickets, and I think that that is the fifth.

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Harriet Harman (Lord Privy Seal, House of Commons; Camberwell & Peckham, Labour): If Members are minded not to object to a House business committee for Back-Bench business but their only reason for objecting might be that they want the subject to be carried forward to 4 March so that an amendment to it can be tabled and to secure a vote, I would tell them not to worry about that. My assurance is that I will not jump round afterwards and say, "See, it's not there. There's nothing to attach an amendment to, so you don't get to vote." I hope that that position is absolutely clear.

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David Heath: It is clear-the procedure is not, but the intention is-and I accept it as that. I am grateful to the Leader of the House for that.

An important point has been raised about the fact that the proposals allow only the election of departmental Select Committees and not House Select Committees-in particular, the Procedure Committee, which will be key to all the rest. Such appointees could stymie the rest if they choose to do so. I hope that whoever is appointed will not do that, but it would be far more logical for the Procedure Committee to be elected like all the rest.

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Hilary Armstrong (North West Durham, Labour): Will the hon. Gentleman give way?

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David Heath: I am just coming to a conclusion.

The Members from the nationalist parties have all gone home, which seems a shame as they had rather an important point to make about the size of Committees and their representation on them. However, if they are not here I shall not bother to make their point for them.

I close on this point: an awful lot of this debate comes down to one single instrument, and that is Standing Order 14. Standing Order 14 is the obstacle to this House behaving like a responsible, sensible, modern House of Commons. Like Cato the Censor of old, who said, "Carthago delenda est," we need to say, "Standing Order 14 delenda est." It has got to go. Until it goes, we will not be able to make the progress that I think the House wants. We shall test that tonight and on 4 March, but I hope that the House realises that it has the opportunity to make that first step to returning ownership of the House to the House. I hope that Members will not be deluded into thinking that they are acting at the behest of the present or future Executive if they turn down that opportunity. I think that their constituents will find it very difficult to understand.

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